While I have not done this in a while, I usually open up a thread once a month to talk about whatever is on your mind or that you would like to ask me. I am going to keep this post up for a couple of days, assuming you guys will have something to ask or talk about. I have several posts to write about in upcoming days, on the gospel, advent season, and missional living, but before I transition, I thought this would be a good time to open it up for whatever cranks your tractor (that’s Alabama speak for all “you guys” not from the South).
So have at it. Whether it is Jesus, theology, gospel, photography, blogging/blogosphere, church, evangelism, life, baby, hairy arms, books, seminary life, SBC, Alabama football (not Auburn please), church planting, politics, Assyrian line-dancing, or whatever else that comes to your mind, here’s your chance for this month to talk it up.
I’m all ears.
Hey Timmy. I just want to say thanks for being such a wealth of imformation for so many (including myself). I can’timagine how you keep up to date on so much , much less have time to blog about it all, plus work a job, go to school and take time out for your family. I get tired just thinkingabout it. Anyway. Thanks for your dedication.
Rod,
Great to hear from you brother, and thanks for the kind words. I will pass it on to my administrative team of researchers and correspondents scattered throughout the fruited plain. They are underpaid and overworked, but perhaps your words will gladden their disposition. 😉
You mentioned hairy arms, but why not hairy backs? A great benefit in winter.
Now that’s funny (and a little gross!). While my childhood memories of family vacations on the beach can attest that I have many uncles with hairy backs, I fortunately am follicly challenged in that area. What I want to know is why my kinsmen from the middle-east are plagued with the uni-brow. That’s just not fair.
Oh, and for those who remember my Ahmedinejad look-a-like contest, here was my submission:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/solaluminacaptura/131793451/
You’ve probably recently said this. But, you’re in seminary right? How much longer until you’re done? What are you plans after seminary? Areyou in an MDiv program?
It is one degree in Stillman Valley, IL. It’s like Paul Bunyan when the soup froze so fast that the ice was hot.
Chris,
Yes, I am in seminary and trying not to make a career out of it. The plans are to finish next semester. I am in the M.Div. program at the Billy Graham School of Evangelism, Missions, and Church Growth. After seminary, I am going to become a professional blogger. Sike. (That’s middle-school slang from the early 90’s in case anyone doesn’t remember). Currently, we are praying about an opportunity post-seminary but cannot speak about it any further at this point.
One degree?! I am not looking forward to going to work tonight either. It’s going to get down to 22 degrees here in Louisville with a biting gust to go with it. I do hope we get some snow this year, just now when my wife goes into labor!
Another random comment for those in Louisville. The best hot chocolate is located across from the Summit on Brownsboro Road at the Speedway (in front of Kroger). 20 oz. hot chocolate with free marshmellows for only $1.16 (that’s a steal compared to FiveBucks across the street). 😉
Timmy,
Uni-brows unite! My son looks just like my wife (blond hair), yet has one distinguishing feature of mine: one eyebrow. Well, you have to look close for his, but I reckon it’s there. We’ll get him shaving it by the time he’s two I’m sure.
But on the serious side, thank you again for the insights and wisdom and collections of good material on the web and especially from our forerunners, those dead saints who continue to nourish our souls and point us to Christ.
Speaking of weather … Y’all can be praying for those here in Oregon and SW Washington who recently have had their lives altered by the rains and flooding in our region, as they build their lives back together (and hopefully call out to Christ!). And speaking of ministry plans … you can pray (of lesser importance) for our family as we weigh a vocational ministry opportunity that we are excited about…
Jeff,
Thanks for sharing those prayer concerns, both of the floods and your family/ministry opportunity. May we devote ourselves in prayer for one another.
As far as dead saints goes, they are the closest men in my life. I honestly do not know where I would be in my walk with Christ were it not for Spurgeon, Edwards, Lloyd-Jones, Calvin, and of course, all the Puritan Divines. Those men drank deep and distilled sweet the Word of God. I find few in our day that can be numbered among them.
Speaking of Puritans, I know that John Owen is getting a lot of exposure today, but if you have never read any of the 17th century English Puritans, I really would not recommend that you start with him. He is not one of the easier ones to read! If I may, let me recommend to you three of the most readable Puritans whose works are really great: Thomas Watson (especially A Body of Divinity and The Godly Man’s Picture), John Flavel (especially Keeping the Heart and the Mystery of Providence), and Richard Sibbes (especially The Bruised Reed).
I’m curious. “This Thread’s For You,” right? So then, what would you say if I were to say, “I love you, man?”
And a bonus to anyone who remembes where that reference is from.
Mr. Newell, if I had one, you still could not have it. If.
Stephen,
If any Southern Baptist knows the source, they are guilty of being under the influence and breaking resolution no. 5. Guillaume, guilty as charged.
I read your posts about the Building Bridges conference and it sounded like you had a little different take than did Tom Ascol on his blog. So, how would you rate the “success” of the conference? Based on what I read and heard it seems that I would have to call it a wash… For every fantastic, humble talk given it seemed there was one that did not have a bridge building agenda, especially Dr. Yarnell.
So, were any bridges built?
Timmy,
I am another one who wants to hear more about your take on the Building Bridges conference. I know that you posted earlier this week that you were going to lay off the subject for awhile, but please reconsider that position.
As to post-Seminary plans, don’t be surprised by any direction that God leads you. Within three months of my graduation I was pastoring the church that I still pastor today. That was 18 years ago, and even though I couldn’t even spell “Bivocational” back in Seminary days I can’t today envision any other path. There is a vitality to ministry that one obtains in the secular workplace. I may not relate well to my fully supported pastor brothers, but I do relate well to the people God has chosen me to lead. I think that the latter is much more important than the former.
Oh well, enough of that, even though you did say that this thread was ours to use as we desire.
Blessing.
>>> “. . . let me recommend to you three of the most readable Puritans whose works are really great: Thomas Watson (especially A Body of Divinity. . .”
I bought a copy of “A Body of Divinity,” used, on the internet about a year ago. The whole book–all 640 pages–is carefully and painstakingly underlined with a straight edge, and highlighted with pink and yellow. In the front is written “Greg Wallace, January 26, 1973.” This book was very important to Greg, and somehow he lost it (maybe in a move or something), and that’s how it ended up for sale on the internet. I would gladly send back it to him, if I knew where he was.
Carol Blair
Longview, TX
Timmy,
Is Bama being humbled so as to prepare them for a great future work? I believe we’re about to, Lord willing, head to a string of great seasons. The intersection of reformed theology and Bama football in my little brain is mind numbing to say the least. What more can I say but Rama Jama Roll Tide Roll!
James
Tim,
I too enjoy your blog entries. They are very refreshing and challenging. I would say to James, roll tide roll (that’s Alabama talk 🙂 ).
On a serious note, since this is a “this tread’s for you,” I would like to ask for pray. I just became the pastor of Saraland BC. They are a great bunch, but more Biblically illiterate than I ever thought. I mean to say that they are a loving group, but entrenched in “this is the Baptist way” of thinking and doing. Never in my life have I seen such a clear picture of tradition triumphing Scripture. Not that I am out to change anything (for a while at least) but I just want to exercise patience toward them and love them, and be faithful to preach the Word. Truth be told, this young preacher is having the time of his life – doing what he loves to do, but it is clearer than it has ever been that they need more than just a “good preacher” (not to say that they have one 🙂 ).
Thanks! (P.S. Kelli says hi. She is due in 5 weeks…I am not sure she will make it!)
Timmy,
Okay, I’ve got one for ‘ya. The Sufficiency of Scripture. I’m trying to muddle through what the Bible has to say on this issue and formulate what I believe.
What limits do we put on the sufficiency of the Scriptures? We know that they are our guide for all of life and practice (though I’m not sure all that that entails). We know that Scripture is “inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2Tim. 3.16). What might this encompass? Does God speak to men today (in their thoughts, etc.)? Does He “guide” men to do certain things that the Bible could never have aided him in? And does this hinder “sufficiency”?
And, if the Scriptures are “sufficient” (whatever that might include), then why would we need spiritual gifts?
Just some curious thoughts,
Billy
Chris & Jerry,
Here is my “two cents” worth on the Building Bridges Conference…
If this Conference did nothing else, I think it clearly showed the Convention that the great divide in the Convention is really not over doctrine at all… it is over “Attitude”! There are those who are humble and gracious Bridge Builders (The Calvinist) and there are those who are arrogant and ungracious Bridge Burners (The Anti-Calvinist).
I think this Conference made this very plain for all to see…
Grace to all
Greg,
While I somewhat agree with you, do you think that the “Anti-Calvinists” will see it that way?
If anything, our Calvinist brethren bent over backward to be gracious, even when others (Yarnell especially) tended toward the condescending. Yes, there was “attitude” but the grounds for that “attitude” was theology.
I don’t know that I have ever seen more attempts to convert us from our nefarious ways than those which were presented at this conference. We were told that our history was all wrong, that we should modify our theology to Amarauldianism or Molinism, that we are anti-missionary and anti-evangelism, etc. All of this was rooted in theology.
The great divide still is theology. If the Doctrines of Grace are true, then everything else is a shabby substitute. Try as we might, there is no truly “gracious” way to present this without raising hackles. Our brethren did a good job, but at the end of the day the lines were still firmly in place.
To be more specific, I think the primary difference at the Building Bridges Conference is really about this question: “What is true conversion?”. Brothers, if our answer to that question is wrong, everything else will be, too!
Chris,
Actually, I think that Tom Ascol and I do share the same take on the Building Bridges Conference. I thought the conference was especially significant in the sense that it consolidated some of the efforts of men in the SBC who are committed to a recovery of the gospel as well as healthy dialogue in the SBC. Those men include Drs. Akin, Ascol, Dockery, Rainer, and Page. These men, though differing on various points of Calvinism, all are on the same page, and I am there too. Now, there obviously will be some who disagree or are not on board with the whole building bridges, including some from both the Calvinist and non-Calvinist sides. Nevertheless, this kind of conference was unthinkable when I first started blogging, which was just a couple of years ago. The messages in particular I would recommend would be Finn’s, Ascol’s, Akin’s, Stetzer’s, Nettles’, and Dockery’s (though most all of them are good).
Jerry,
Yes, this thread is to talk about whatever you wish! 🙂
Regarding the conference, I think the Building Bridges conference was to drive a stake into the ground on some essential areas on which we can all agree upon. On the areas where we disagree, our commitment to cooperation and Christian love should allow for healthy and robust discussion on various theological differences. Now that a foundation has been laid, I think you will see greater things being built upon that foundation, including several books coming out on consensus and renewal in the SBC. I also think you will find a recommitment of “togetherness” that is not naive or blind to secondary issues but underscores our focus on the gospel, integrity of the local church, and the Great Commission.
Carol,
Watson’s Body of Divinity was 640 pages?! Mine is only 316 pages. Does it include another book? Could it perhaps be John Gill’s systematic? Just curious. 🙂
James,
Bama football is a sore spot for me right now. I think our program has been inherently flawed since our last national championship (1992). For one, I think we should burn all the “Got 12?” t-shirts as we have prided ourselves on yesterday’s victories as though we could relive the moments vicariously each year. Second, our fans need to quit being so hyper-active. I am all about being excited, but good grief, some Alabama fans need to just chill out. Three, we need much better recruiting in the years to come. Our talent level is just not up to par with other teams like Florida and LSU. Four, we need to find a way to win in November. In the last three years in the month of November, we are like 2-10. That’s not a good way to finish out the season! Maybe we should start the season by playing tougher teams. In any case, I am hopeful for next season, just not going bonkers over it.
Yogi,
That’s great to hear brother. I am excited for you about the new ministry opportunities and the little one on the way. Your family is growing quickly! Please keep in touch, and I will be remembering you in my prayers.
Since this is a talk about anything day — Have you seen Rod Bell’s interview with CNN? Would you care to make any comments on the interview, Rod Bell or his book Sex God?
Billy,
The issue of the sufficiency of Scripture is obviously a huge issue, one that could take up a lot of space. While I do not intend to get a full defense of it, I would like to make a few points to boot. One, God has revealed to us in Scripture everything we need to know about himself, salvation, and the Christian life. Therefore, extrabiblical revelations should be examined in that light (examples for instance would be the Quakers and the Word of Faith Movement). This is why I find Christian mysticism and other forms of contemplative spirituality problematic. It is a deviation from the clearly communicated truths about God revealed in God’s written revelation. Also, it is important to note that the Spirit works together with the Word, not distinct or apart from it. If God is going to speak to me today, I believe He will convict me through His Word by the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit in my life. I discern the Spirit’s speaking to me on account of its relation to Christ (Word Incarnate) and its relation to Scripture (Word of God). The fact that God has spoken, that he has given us a *word,* should not be taken lightly, and he has given us His Spirit that we might know the thoughts of God (1 Cor. 2:9ff). Scripture is sufficient in part because it is breathed out by God, authored by the Holy Spirit, living and active, and sourced in the God who himself is self-sufficient. So I believe inherent in the nature of Scripture is a relationship to the nature of God who authored it.
Thus, to briefly answer your questions, I believe that God speaks to men through His Word by the illuminating and convicting work of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the agency of the Holy Spirit is displaced from the instrumentality of the Word. Therefore, when someone says that God gives them thoughts not grounded in God’s revelation, I think there is certainly grounds for concern or speculation. It is really dangerous to argue that God can guide you in some truth where Scripture could not lead you, and I certainly would not advocate that line of thinking. There is certainty and trustworthiness in the Word of God and the Spirit of Truth whose ministry is to glorify Christ (Word Incarnate) and illumine Scripture. I do not find that in any information sourced outside of what God has fully revealed.
Lastly, we are given spiritual gifts not for ourselves, but for the building and edification of the Church. God has appointed to each person a gift to be used in service to others, and this reality has no bearing on the sufficiency of Scripture. I hope that I have addressed your questions at least from a minimalistic point of view.
Bill,
I was directed to that CNN segment from Denny Burk’s blog. I looked at it this morning. I first heard of Bell at a Youth Specialties Conference in 2001, so while I have known of him for quite some time, I have not followed his theology very closely. What makes Bell so attractive is that he is an excellent communicator, even though his message is seldom close to orthodox Christian teaching.
I have not read his book “Sex God” although I did see the chapter titles in the interview (really odd titles). Having admitted to my ignorance, I will have to refrain until I have further knowledge on the subject.
One of the things I think we need to be careful about regarding Bell is that he relies heavily upon a Rabbinical teacher from whom he gains much of his esoteric insight. However, Scripture reveals that it is chiefly and supremely about Christ, and we can only properly understand it through a fully canonical and Christological hermeneutic. If Bell’s teaching is based on a Jewish Rabbi who denies Jesus as the Messiah, how then, does this affect Bell’s version of the Christian faith?
Perhaps I will have more to say on Bell at a later time. Two dangers I would be careful to avoid is being theologically naive and uncritically antagonistic. I see both when it comes to responding to Bell.
For those interested in reading Burk’s post, here it is:
http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=977
Tell me, if we can not experience life while we are dead in our sins and the only way we can get out of our sins is by justification and that happens through faith, then how can the Reformed position be regeneration preceeds faith?
Phil,
1 John 5:1 states, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God . . .”. So which comes first? Believing (present tense) or “has been born of God” (past tense)?
All it says is if they are presently believing then they have been born of God, it does not give an order of how it happens. Now tell me again how one can be alive and yet not joined to Christ because he has not been justified through faith?
Phil,
I don’t know you, but I must say that you are coming across rather belligerently. I would be happy to discuss theology issues with you, but if you are wishing to argue or fight over this, I am not interested.
Scripture reveals that we are given new life through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Here’s just a few verses:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” John 6:63
“If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.” Rom. 8:11
“. . . who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor. 3:6
I understand Scripture to say that the life-giving Spirit of God regenerates those who are dead in their trespasses and sins and are “made alive” (e.g. born again of the Spirit – John 3:8). I believe that the new covenant promise, “I will put my Spirit within you” (Ez. 36:27), is the free work of God (monergistically speaking) applied to those whom God has chosen. These are supplied the graces of repentance and faith whereby they are united with Christ through justification. Logically, regeneration precedes justification, though I do not believe there is a temporal gap between the two. Hope that helps a bit. If you disagree, that’s fine, but please argue your position from Scripture, and I would happy to listen to your argument.
Just thought I’d pass this random note along. For all you HuckaChuck supporters, here is the Rasmussen Daily Survey of the candidates which reveals Huckabee not clearly leading in the Republican side of the Presidential race.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/daily_presidential_tracking_polling_history
“Not clearly leading” or “now clearly leading”? Looks like he has had some significant movement in the polls.
I have been leaning towards Huckabee, but recent revelations of his immigration plan have me rethinking my position somewhat.
Oops. Yeah, I meant now clearly leading. It will be interesting to see how he handles all the attacks and hit pieces that will come against him since he is in the lead (especially about the man led out of death row in AR and his record on spending). For now, Huckabee is my candidate, although I would have to reconsider if he wrote an essay in pre-school about being president of the United States (just kidding).
BTW, did anyone catch the BP news report on baptist state papers? I found this really interesting. In general they are down 22% in the past decade and at the lowest circulation in over 50 years. Here’s the links:
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=26981
and
http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=26985
Not wanting to be belligerent, I just thought that you said we can ask any question on any topic. Perhaps the mode of communication has some fault in this miscommunication. i just wanted to know what you would make of my question.
Let me just point to one thing and see if you agree. I am looking at the 1599 Geneva Study Bible, which is undoubtedly of the Reformed persuasion and the note for John 5:25 reads “We are all dead in sin and cannot be quickened by any other means, than by the word of Christ apprehended by faith.”
Now would you agree to this interpretation? If so, then what do you make of it where it says before we are quickened we must apprehended by faith?
Again, it seems strange that one can have life and not be in Christ which is what you have with the Reformed view of regeneration preceding faith.
Phil,
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. – Ephesians 2:8,9 (ESV)
The faith by which you are apprehended is the gift of the Holy Spirit’s regenerating work. Note that the Geneva Bible note does not say “before we are quickened” as you stated, but instead “cannot be quickened”.
Blessings.
Jerry,
Thank you for correcting me; let us deal with that as it is written. If we cannot be quickened by any other means than by the word of Christ apprehended by faith then it would still seem to flow better with faith preceding regeneration. Of course I understand that in the Reformed tradition faith is a gift and I suppose you could argue that, but it still would seem that faith must come first. Otherwise what you have is someone in Christ that has yet to be justified.
Phil,
Regarding the open thread, indeed it is open, just not to making demands as you did (“now tell me again . . .).
The previous text (John 5:24) says,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
Eternal life is given to those who hear and believe. But how does this happen? Can sinners morally unable and corrupt in their nature hear the voice of Jesus and believe apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? Those who have ears to hear and hearts to believe are only because of the prior work of the Holy Spirit. Yet, eternal life is apprehended by faith, but this is not apart from the regenerating work and effectual call of the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the “analogy of faith” where difficult texts are to be interpreted in clearer texts in Scripture. I would like to know how you reconcile John 5:25 with the aforementioned texts I posited in my previous comment regarding the Spirit giving life. I do not find Scripture inconsistent and want to account for all that the Scripture says. The Reformed tradition has stated that saving faith is the hand with apprehends salvation, the instrumental cause. The efficient or final cause is God. This is why Scripture consistently notes that “all of this of God” (2 Cor. 5:18) and it is by his doing that we are in Christ (1 Cor. 1:30). Do you believe this? If not, I await your articulation of the relationship of regeneration and saving faith/conversion.
I have no problem stating that the Spirit gives life to the sinner. i just believe that before that is done that we must meet the condition that God has stipulated in the Bible, that being that we are to have faith in His Son. I believe that this is done by preaching of the Word with the working of the Spirit while under the influence of prevenient grace. I believe that by you pointing to the previous verse it goes along with what I just said that we believe before we are in Christ and that would mean that faith precedes regeneration.
Again, if I have offended you in anyway I am sorry. That was not my intent. I just wanted to ask a question that I have when it comes to Reformed theology.
Phil,
I just thought you came across strongly, that’s all. I am open to discuss issues, but I can never tell if someone is trying to pin me down and play theological “gotcha”. There are websites out there (unfortunately) who have trolls who want to take my words and use them against me as front page news on their blog. I don’t mean to sound defensive, but I proceed with caution when I don’t know folks personally.
Regarding faith, I take it that you believe saving faith is available to all people either through their own resources or prevenient grace. I think this is where we differ. I do not believe there is biblical support for the idea of prevenient grace; on the contrary, I hold to effectual or irresistible grace (a term often misunderstood).
A sinner can sit under the preaching of the gospel for years and not believe. They are stubborn, hard-hearted, and in rebellion against God. Then, amazingly, their hearts are softened, convicted of sin, broken of their need for Christ, and turn to him in repentance and faith. What brought about that change of heart, that difference in affections and disposition? I believe it is the work of the Holy Spirit drawing, calling, and regenerating the heart with holy affections and will with holy inclinations/resolutions to choose Christ in faith. I do not believe there can be saving faith apart from regeneration as it makes us willing and desirous to trust in Jesus.
Feel free to ask whatever question comes to your mind. We may not end up agreeing on the subject, but I do hope we can have an open and charitable conversation in the meantime.
Timmy,
Thank you again for your kind words and for engaging me on a very difficult topic. The last thing I want is to argue and confront anyone, if anyone needs confronting it is me to make sure that I am in the faith. My problem with the Reformed view of regeneration preceding faith is something that has always gnawed at me. I can not understand how one can be in Christ while not yet justified. Thank you again for your interaction on this and for your kindness. I am sorry that I gave a false impression or that I came across as belligerent.
Phil,
Anytime.
One last thing: Regarding being “in Christ” and justification, I do not think that Reformed theologians would posit the idea that a sinner can be “in Christ” and not justified. In other words, we are justified by faith and our union with Christ (being “in Christ”) is by faith. Yet prior to this declaration is the regenerating work of the Spirit renewing our hearts and fulfilling the new covenant promise of “putting my Spirit within you” and “causing you to walk in my ways.” In other words, taking the heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh is prior to justification. However, those whom he calls, he justifies (Rom. 8:30). That effectual call inevitably leads to justifying faith.
In case you are interested in reading a little on prevenient grace, I encourage you to check out a chapter written by Tom Schreiner in a book called Still Sovereign. The chapter is called “Does Scripture Teach Prevenient Grace in the Wesleyan Sense?” and you can read it online here:
http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/StillSovereign.htm
More articles can be found here:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prevenient.html
Enjoyed the discussion, and I hope that we can converse again sometime.
Timmy–My copy of “Body of Divinity” is definitely 640 pages. It’s published by Sovereign Grace Publishers, Grand Rapids, but there’s no date. There is no table of contents. it begins with a “Brief Memoir of Thomas Watson” by Spurgeon, then covers many topics, the largest of which seem to be the Ten Commandments and The Lord’s Prayer. At the end there is an alphabetical index of major topics in the book, and then 2 pages of other Puritan works available from the same publisher.
Carol,
Ah, I see. I think Banner of Truth puts Watson’s exposition on the Ten Commandments and Lord’s Prayer in separate books which explains some of the difference in size. Wow. That must be a handy volume there. I wonder if Sovereign Grace Publishers still has it in print . . .
Okay, I’ve got it now.
What if I said, “I love YOU, man?”
Stephen,
You are beginning to worry me. 😕
BTW,
I have always wondered how people have got those fancy smiley faces on Wordpress. For those interested, here’s the link:
http://faq.wordpress.com/2006/06/04/what-smilies-can-i-use/
Caveat: Excessive emoticons will result in blog detention in the moderation pool.
Tim,
From looking around on your blog, it is obvious that you are a very busy person…working, having a baby, being a husband, student, active church member, spending a lot of time blogging, plus it appears that you do a lot of reading, reasearch and writing outside of your school work. Also, I’m sure there are things you do that you don’t blog about. I would be interested to hear any thought you have on how you “redeem” your time and get so much accomplished.
Timmy,
Have you had a chance to listen to Darrin Patrick’s emerging church lectures from covenant seminary? I would love to hear your thoughts. Will you post about this soon?
Rocky,
I wish I could answer that question in a satisfactory manner (I originally had written a really long comment but thought it was perhaps too much detail). I don’t know. First, I think that sometimes my life is unbalanced, and I spend more time on the blog that I should.
If I may allow me to address just one part, namely how I plan my blogging. One of the things that helps is I am awake 2-3 hours more than the average person. Working 3rd shift is both good and bad. I usually write during the morning hours before my wife is awake (4:00 a.m.-6:30 a.m.) and read while she is working. I sleep on average 4-5 hours a day (which is not recommended by the way). I write literally all the time (usually I have two notebooks and a bible with me wherever I go). Most of my blogposts are already in bullet form from the drive home from work, and I have mapped out the next two weeks and will spend several days meditating on each post before I write (usually). The meditations are either written in my journal or put in draft mode in a word document. Sunday nights are getting over the hump in order to get back on 3rd shift sleep schedule. To do that, I usually stay awake until 3-4 a.m. Monday morning. What I normally do on heavy blogging weeks is write 3-4 posts during that night (from 11 p.m.-3 a.m.), tweak them later, and then timestamp them to go up when at various time intervals during the week. On occasion, I will blog during the week, but most of it is done in sectioned time-blocks.
I subscribe to about 130 blogs, but only allow myself about an hour a day to check them. That means many don’t get read (right now, my Google Reader says there are 572 blogposts I haven’t read!). That time usually is my news briefing on all that is worth reading (what most people would use reading magazines, newspapers, or watching local news on television).
I guess that’s about it. There’s more to it than that, of course, but that kind of gives you the gist of what I do. Regarding reading/researching, I can address that in another comment, assuming that you would be interested.
Sam,
I have Darrin’s lectures downloaded but have not had the time to listen to them yet. I plan to do that in the near future. I had originally planned on blogging through An Emergent Manifesto of Hope this past Fall, but projects came up to prevent that from happening. Perhaps it would be good to interact with Darrin’s lectures a little. If I do, it will have to happen sometime in January as December schedule is pretty full. One of the things I want to blog on this month is the IX Marks e-journal on cultural transformation. The issues are somewhat similar (church and culture), although I would like to dedicate some time to discussing the emerging church in the future. Now that you have mentioned it, I will be sure to make it a priority to listen to them.
Tim,
“Assyrian line-dancing”
Thanks for the belly laugh!
Ask Anything Timmy, what is your thought on how much pastor’s should make? Our church has been w/o a pastor for the past year, and we have a candidate coming this weekend to preach in view a call. We will then meet on Wednesday to discuss his salary package. Any thoughts on the state of pastor’s salaries today? Do you have any resources to help in our discussion? How much is too much?
Will,
While I do not possess Timmy vast wisdom… 🙂 Here is my opinion on setting a Pastors salary. A Pastor should live “among” his congregation… he should not live “above” his congregation, nor “below” his congregation.
Here is what I would do… (1st) Have everyone at this meeting write down on a slip of paper what their income is. (2nd) Total up the amount on the slips of paper and divide that amount by the number of slips of paper. This will give you an average income for your congregation. (3rd) This should give you a good place to start, but you may need to consider the cost housing and other factors that will impact the standard of living of your pastor. When all is said and done what you are after is a standard of living fro your pastor and family that is in line with the average standard of living for the families in your congregation.
Blessings,
Will,
Greg’s idea sounds appealing, and I like his overall idea. I think we could agree that there are two extremes that need to be avoided. On one end, pastors should not be the highest paid people in your church or even in that ball park. On the other end, we should not develop the idea that they should be “suffering for Jesus” because the most spiritual are the most poor. It is hard to give an arbitrary number because those figures mean different things in different contexts. For instance, the cost of living is way lower in rural Alabama than it is say in suburban Chicago. Maybe there should be an updated cost of living for an average family of four. In general, I would research the data and be prepared to make a defense for both sides: to the pastor and his family as well as the leaders (elders, personnel committee, deacons, whomever) on what is the most financially responsible and yet fully supportive salary package. While I do not like the idea of ministers rolling in the bling (like what we see on television and all), I also do not like the idea of creating financial pressure on the pastor and his family because you have not supported him in an adequate way.
Unfortunately, I do not have any resources on the subject. I think we need to ask both questions, however, both “How much is too much?” as well as “How much is too little?”
Ya, Tim, I’d be interested to hear about how you schedule reading/research on top of everything else.
Timmy,
Even though this issue has been on my mind anyways the Building Bridges Conference brought it out more. That is the lack of even caring about being theologically informed. And I’m not talking about Calvinism, but just in general. I think there may be some barriers in the SBC at large. Here I don’t mean blogs that speak of “love-fests” either. but the people in the pews which I think is a direct reflection of what they are being fed.
So the issue I am wondering about is how can we energize people to care about Biblical theology in the pulpit and the pew? Maybe that’s too broad a question.
What do you think?
Mark
Tim, you mentioned that you wondered if Solid Ground Christtian Books still had the Body of Divinty in print…? They do! It is a great book that many will enjoy, but it’s $50 for the hard back… so if you got the cash for it good, other wise you might like to borrow someone’s copy, or get the soft cover. Here is the link, for anyone who would like to check out their selections of great reformed books…
http://www.solid-ground-books.com
As Dr. Bryant always says, Enjoy:) !
Yogi
I think there is some confusion on the Body of Divinity books. The one at Solid Ground is by James Ussher which I believe is the 600+ page book. The same title by Thomas Watson is the 300+ page book.
🙂
Mark
Tim,
I was in Mobile for thanksgiving and I ran by 832 N Chalen Circle. The place actually was asking me to tell the 832 crew hello. I told sneak and thought I’d tell you that the house really misses you guys. Hope all is well brother
Is JBurrage, Jeremy Burrage that went to U of Mobile?
JohnMark,
You’re right. There has been a longstanding tradition of anti-intellectualism and contempt/suspicion over the theologically-minded in the pew. This is a huge issue for me, one that I am personally investing a lot of my time trying to change.
For one, even having a blog where theological issues are being discussed is very helpful, for it is introducing ideas, doctrines, issues, historical figures, confessions, etc. to people who may have never heard of them before. I consciously consider my blog to be between two worlds–academia and pop culture, and I try to speak to and influence both.
Another thing I have started is my series entitled “Blue Collar Theology”–an initiative focused on developing healthy and robust theological education in the local church while assisting everyday Christians in their study of theology and growth in the knowledge of God.
I will be posting more ideas in the near future regarding this issue, and I would love to hear more ideas on how we can develop and cultivate more theologically informed and responsible Christians.
Jeremy (yes Yogi, that’s our brother),
You didn’t see Lucy Holcomb out front did you? 😉 I still remember our 832 answering machine message affectionately sung to the tune of “Umpa Lumpa.” We got lots of mean messages by folks for making them sit through such a lame song.
832 will always have a special place in my heart. I just don’t miss all the cockroaches. The best Monopoly games I ever played happened in living room #2. It’s great to hear from you brother. Hope all is well at C-wood.
Yogi,
I looked on the Solid-Ground site but could not find Watson’s work. Do you have the direct link? Also, do you still keep in touch with Dr. Bryant. Is he still at Criswell College?
Tim,
JohnMark pointed out that the Body of Divinty is the one by James Ussher, not by Thomas Watson… sorry I got the wrong one. It is still a good read, and worth the bucks to buy. The link is the right one, I went to it myself, I hope that it works for everyone else.
I don’t keep in touch with the ole Dr. Bryant, I just keep his sayings alive… 🙂 I do love that man and his shear poles stories… hahahah! He was suppose to retire out in TX but I think he just took another position at the school (Criswell).
Yogi
>> Southern Baptist Politicos:
Quote:
“Paul Pressler, who played an instrumental role in the Southern Baptist Convention’s Conservative Resurgence, endorsed Fred Thompson for president Dec. 7.”
That’s the first line of this baptist press report:
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=26996
Um, am I missing something here, but why should we care about who Paul Pressler is voting for? Why is this “Baptist Press” news? Because he spearheaded the Conservative Resurgence? Here’s the logic:
1. We should be grateful, and on the side of, the Conservative Resurgence.
2. Paul Pressler spearheaded the Conservative Resurgence and is endorsing Fred Thompson for President.
3. If you are for the Conservative Resurgence, then you will be for Fred Thompson because that is what Paul Pressler is for.
If you don’t vote for Fred Thompson, you aren’t really a conservative Southern Baptist. 😯
Yogi,
Last time I checked, he is still there (as a VP I think). I will never forget being on a plane next to Dr. Bryant on our way to Brazil as he told me stories for eight hours straight. I thought to myself, “This is a real live Forrest Gump! He knows everybody!” Man, I miss Dr. Bryant.
Rocky,
Give me until the morning, and I will post a comment on my research and reading methods. Sorry for the delay (I have some researching to do!).
I’m sorry I just can’t stay away… why in the world would Pressler endorse Thompson over Mike Huckabee, who (I may have it wrong but I am pretty sure) was president of the Southern Baptist State Convention in AR. That’s crazy!
Well I have something else to ask… Tim, and anyone with Biblical insight, is doubting a sin? I have my own thoughts but I would like to read yours.
(if so, what do you say to Jesus’ response to John the Bapt. when he doubted, and I am assuming that you agree that that was him doubting – but if not share with me why?)
Yogi
Yogi,
I know Huckabee was governor of Arkansas, but I don’t think he was the president of the state convention of AR. He is, however, an ordained Southern Baptist minister. For now, I will let someone else chime in on doubt . . .
Timmy,
I have been voting faithfully for your question to Mark Driscoll at his ask anything site. You ‘ve slipped a bit, but you still are on the list. Any thoughts? Are there any posts forthcoming to rally the troops and get out the vote?
As a Minister of Worship and one who’s job is the weekly planning of multiple worship services, I would be interested in you answering this question yourself some time. Is that in the notepads or in the works yet?
I have strong feelings in this area as well and think it can only beneficial for all christians to think about such things. It isn’t only a question for seminarians, it goes to the heart of what we mean by “the sufficiency of scripture.”
I know I’m coming in late to this show, but if I might I’d like to comment on Greg’s question about pastoral salaries.
Your idea is not one that I’d support. Unless the pastor is willing or called to be bivocational; depending on his church’s membership, he could be forced into bivocational ministry. Especially if the membership does not obey the biblical principles of tithing.
First, what if a congregation expects full-time service from their pastor, but doesn’t or refuses to provide their pastor with a salary that enables such service, forcing the pastor to get a job? Such a church needs either a reality check or it needs to be honest and call for a bivocational pastor.
Second, what if the congregation is made up of people barely pushing or below the poverty line, as mine is? Retirees, people on welfare, social security or disability, etc., with few or no young people in the congregation who can significantly contribute? Should we expect the pastor to take care of his family on the same limited income as a retiree on social security benefits? If not for my job at UPS, I’d be on the street or living with my in-laws right now, since I actually make less than some of our retirees and disabled, and even less now that giving has gone down and forced us to cut our budget drastically in half. I don’t make anywhere near the average income of our congregation, and I doubt other pastors in my situation do either. (Yes, I have a dog in this hunt.) Caveat: I am in a Deaf church, and Deaf people historically have not had access to stable, successful employment nor advancement in those jobs they have been able to secure.
A third reason, brought up in my second point: what if giving in the church goes down and the church is forced to slash the budget, and the pastor’s salary is a casualty?
Churches need to be very honest with themselves and those they call to lead them. A church needs to decide if it can afford a full-time minister and if so, if they are willing to provide a comfortable salary that would allow their pastor to be focused on growing the church with as little worry for his family’s provision.
If they cannot or they are not willing, they need to be even more honest and call someone who is bivocational. On top of that, they need to be willing to accept that such a pastor cannot realistically function as a full-time pastor.
This is a situation where the saying “little churches should act like a big church” is dangerous and could lead to disaster for all parties. I have become deeply mistrustful of that saying, since it can stretch a church like mine to the breaking point. There is nothing wrong with being a small church and acting like one. I just wonder about the wisdom of expecting small-church pastors who were not called as bivocational ministers to suffer similar or worse financial hardships as the church members.
Ron,
There have been several folks who have asked about my question on Ask Anything, wondering if could be revived. Perhaps we can give it a try. I have stayed away for over a month now (when the whole thing got out of hand). Is there enough interest for a ninth inning comeback?
Oh, and I have many notes on the RP filed away, but have not written on it yet. A couple of my friends have, though. For instance, check out Andrew’s posts on SBF:
http://strangebaptistfire.com/2007/11/08/historical-introduction-to-the-regulative-principle-of-worship/
and Nathan here:
(1) http://strangebaptistfire.com/2007/11/26/john-calvin-on-the-regulative-principle-of-worship/
(2) http://strangebaptistfire.com/2007/11/20/drama-and-the-christmas-season/
(3) http://strangebaptistfire.com/2007/12/01/vain-worship/
Regarding the issue of pastor’s salary, I may have been wrong in making the assumption that the pastor was in view of a “full time” (versus bi-vocational) position. Now granted, all ministerial positions are “full time” (I just use that term to make the distinction).
I think that when a church fails to support their pastors financially, it is reflective of either how they understand church leadership or a sign of their spiritual immaturity (or both). Now there is a big caveat here. Most churches are simply not large enough to support their pastor “full time.” In fact, the overwhelming majority of ministers in the SBC pastor in a “bivocational” position. I think there are strengths and benefits to both. For one, I do not think that church budgets often have an unhealthy chunk dedicated to personnel (sometimes in excess of 60%). If ministers prefer to serve bivocationally and have a decent secondary income from another skill or job, then more money could be opened up to other causes such as missions, benevolence, etc. On the other hand, a minister who dedicates all his time and attention throughout the week to the church will likely be more more useful and available to equipping, leading, and serving the body of Christ. Honestly, I have wrestled with this issue for a long time (and still do to a degree). Ministers who also have a “tentmaking” job are regularly rubbing shoulders with unbelievers and can relate to the rank-and-file church member. There is a sense that “he is one of us.” On the other hand, he is to be “before us” in shepherding, caring, feeding, and leading that requires time and energy that a bivocational simply would not have.
Stephen, I sympathize with your situation. I have been in church growth situations where churches justify adding another full-time staff member for every 100 people who join the church. It was a pragmatic paradigm that said the bigger the better. I have also seen churches who, being the same size, have half the staff as others. Obviously, this is a big issue which has multiple implications, not the least of which are what you have mentioned. Maybe we can pick this up again on a dedicated post.
Rocky,
Here’s submission two to your question. This time on research methods.
When I began seminary, I wanted to find a topic that I would be passionate about and devote the majority of my writing to. What I came to find is that I am driven to address what I have come to consider as the greatest threats to the gospel and Jesus Christ. The main issues have been anti-intellectualism, Open Theism, religious pluralism, soteriological inclusivism, universalism, various models of divine providence, heresies based on theology proper (attributes of God).
That said, I have over the past four years channeled the majority of my research around these issues. My goal is to have available every book, article, essay, and book review available on each topic. Probably the biggest one of them all has been inclusivism, where I have written four lengthy papers already (I have a working bibliography with about 600 entries). Eventually, I plan on writing a total of 12 papers and turn them into chapters for a much larger work (300-350 pages). My other project on Carl Henry and the New Evangelical Conscience will probably be the smaller work (175-200 pages). A third project is to develop a more popular work on the greatest threats to the gospel and orthodox Christian faith and help equip God’s people to understand the issues and offer a biblical defense for the faith. Lastly, I have started to research and develop a church planting strategy that will emphasize in planting missionally Reformed and distinctively Baptist churches.
So that’ where I am heading. Some of the steps I get there include:
1. Having landed on the topic, I begin by developing a lengthy bibliography, highlighting the most important or primary works.
2. Usually on a monthly basis, I will spend one night (5-6 hours) retrieving journal articles, copying them, and filing them for future reading. I usually get about 25-30 journal articles per visit. I also xerox copy relevant portions of particular books that do not require an entire reading.
3. I create my own “reader” for each paper or topic, chronologically placing them according to the most important/relevant to the topic.
4. I then develop a reading timeline or plan according to deadlines or goals. I try to balance the readings between journal articles and books.
5. I mark up (rather severely) the readings, selecting quotes, asking questions, summarizing author’s arguments, etc.
6. I create what I call my “footnote files” where I type up and properly cite all relevant quotes from my readings. For instance, my “footnote file” for Carl Henry on social action is around 90 pages.
7. The footnote file then is organized or categorized in subtopics or smaller issues/subpoints. An outline is developed of the footnote file, inserted at the beginning, and used for future reference. The benefit for this is that all I have to do is find the issue, quote, copy and paste it into a paper, and it is all there (no more having to look up sources, get bib info, etc.).
8. Also, to stay abreast on current scholarship, I will rummage through all the current issues of about 50-60 journal articles on a quarterly basis. If I find an article relevant to my research or topics, I will xerox them at that time and file them away.
That’s generally how I research. I am probably leaving something out that I will remember later, but at least there is the basic structure. 🙂
So for each topic, I have accordian style folders for articles, essays, and excerpts, books sectioned off in the library, full bibliography, topic reader (which I am hoping to have bound), and a working footnote file that continues to be added as more books and articles are read.
Thanks Timmy.
Um. Dang. If you’re not planning on doing doctoral work, you just fooled all of us. I’d say most of us were glad just to get the assigned work done. 😉
Well, in full disclosure, I did the extra work because I am ADD like that and cannot stand not feeling like I had done a thorough job on the subject. I figured all that extra effort could be put to use somewhere in the future. Will that be a PhD? I don’t know. But I will continue to research, study, and write and see what happens. 🙂
Thanks Tim. Just so you know, I copy and pasted your reply regarding reading/research to a word document and saved it for future personal use. I have another question though. Regarding the 130 blogs that you subscribe to, if you could only check 5 in a given day, what would they be?
Rocky,
That’s hard to get them down to five. Let me try five Southern Baptist blogs and ten evangelical blogs:
Five SBC Blogs:
1. Nathan Finn
2. Tom Ascol
3. Joe Thorn
4. Ed Stetzer
5. Denny Burk
Ten Evangelical Blogs:
1. Justin Taylor
2. Tim Challies
3. Desiring God
4. The Resurgence
5. Parchment and Pen
6. Pulpit Live
7. Erik Ramond (Irish Calvinist)
8. James Grant (In light of the Gospel)
9. Tony Reinke (The Shepherd’s Scrapbook)
10. Church Matters (IX Marks)
I check these usually on a daily basis. I have about 30-40 others I check about 2-3 times a week. In other words, my reading is tiered, depending on how important/how good their blogging is. I also have a list of blogs of people I strongly disagree with in order to know what they are thinking/saying and to better understand their position.
So here is the breakdown:
Daily Group: 20-30 of my favorite blogs
Second Tier Group: 30-40 good blogs, but do not read daily
Miscellanies Group: 10-20 blogs about random stuff (photography, productivity, news, etc.)
“Opposition” Group: 10-20 blogs of scholars and practitioners I disagree with on key issues
Perhaps I should write a post on this. I think there is much to gain from a well-organized, time-conscious blog reading. For me it has been almost a secondary education.